111 Comments (page 1)

Nice new logo guys! Also a great insight into how to get hold of a really good one. I made mine myself, its a great way to learn a little about new programs such as Paintshop Pro and so on.

Thanks a lot, glad you enjoyed it! Yea, there is definitely a lot to learn in the world of design...too much for me :)

You guys have the best "How-To's" for new ventures, whether it be actual business ideas or learning new techniques and skills. The ideas coming from you guys are awesome!! Thank you!

Damn, thanks man! Will has been tearing it up, this guide is going to save a lot of people A LOT of money (and is already getting a bunch of designers all sorts of angry :)

Hate mail? For this? All I can say is you always have to consider the source. I read this yesterday and instantly shared it on twitter, fb, linkedin, and g+. Great info, well presented. You go Will!

Thanks for this. Most people would charge for these very informative posts. Any entrepreneur would gladly welcome successful tips if can save them time or money. Keep em coming guys.

You tested how many conversion/visitors each page gets that has a different logo. What does conversions mean to you. What did they have to do in order to be "converted." Also, does the logo of the website really affect the conversion rate that much?

I don't know why you received hate mail. This is a genius logo hack.

People that are hating are probably graphic designers that need to move on from competing with crowd sourcing websites. Great article. I will use it when I design my next logo.

Some (overpriced) designers get REAL upset about this stuff because it threatens to cut them out of the equation. When you threaten someone's job you can't expect them to think real rationally about the ideas :) Thanks a lot for sharing StartupBros posts, it's truly the highest compliment. It's super important for us! Have a blast today, Wally!

Haters that are scared for their jobs

Awesome Matt, thanks so much for commenting and letting me know what you thought. Glad in this case it's positive :-P You da man! Will

Amen - show us what you get with it!

Awesome, thanks a lot Wally! If I would have seen your shares, my Monday would have been much more positive :-P Thanks Wally!

Thanks Scott - as long as I'm helping entrepreneurs make it I can take the hate haha

This is a wonderful post. I think I'd love every logo that you guys adopt as long as it features the StartUp Guys heads! Stay terrific!

Will. In depth article and informative - great quality! But I'm not sure I like this method. Buy that doesn't justify any hate mail. I think maybe you are missing some of the long term assets of your logo by using some relatively short term measurements and by lowering costs. For instance - the makeup of the websites audience may not be the exact audience you want - but they are the ones deciding your logo through conversions. You could be affecting your future conversions of the audience you do want. Also, now that you use this logo you may be attracting a different type of audience than you intended - or different from who you should - because you went with the relatively short term results rather than having an independent expert plan and design accordingly. Lastly, maybe you missed out on some of the logo and branding design advice you would have gotten from a high quality designer. Anyway- still a great post and a good option out of many available options.

Great Job Will! Your website and your articles has been a tremendous help for me. The information I've gotten from these has been invaluable to me. I even bookmarked some of them ...heck most of them for reference. I learned in here what they didn't teach me in college....like hmmm "How to Create a Logo design?" lol Keep up the good work and maybe one day I'll join you guys at start up bros if i get lucky! haha PS: I'll buy you a beer when I see you! --Harvey

Thanks so much for your support Tree Turtle!! You're one of the most terrific humans I know!

Too much hate online and not enough love! Personally, regarding this article I skipped over only because 99 designs was suggested. Over the years I mastered the outsourcing game, so I am able to pinpoint to the atom my ideal logo designer using services such as oDesk. From the very beginning I filter for the type of client I am looking for, and literally within minutes of posting I already have offers. I then decide to look at there work history, and can then narrow it down. As long as I like the designer, I can begin to communicate with him or her, and usually it takes 2 to 3 drafts before the vision is implemented. Now I have around two to three designers I have saved, so when a job pops up, I contact them first to see if they are interested, and it works out because they understand my taste. Nothing against 99 designs, it was great for me in the beginning, but my last bout with them ended because my price range did not attract many interested contestants. Thanks, Omar

Nice trick... But wouldn't you be alienating the designers on that crowdsourcing site? Would they continue to work with you?

Good trick... But wouldn't you be alienating the designers on that crowdsourcing site? Would they continue to work with you?

Who "owns" the logo after it's created?

@Miheer, Just in case your comment was a reply to my post. I might be misunderstood. I post a job opportunity with filtered qualifications. Browse through the work history of the interested candidates, then choose one designer. In communication with the awarded designer we usually get to the desired logo after a couple attempts.

What's wrong with this? It's a place for barely interested race-to-the-bottom designers and frugal small businesses to hang out and make each other happy. Now off to write some proposals...

Great post Will. Stats don't lie. My first post here so I just wanted to say that you guys are putting together a great blog!

Great information here. I'm not currently looking for a new logo, but when I am, I'll know the steps and have some great recommendations. Thanks!

Hi Mario, Thanks for the great questions. I tested around 20-30k unique visitors total. I was testing 3 conversion goals in this, 2 of them being form sign ups and 1 of them being an engagement goal. They either needed to engage with our site (comment, share, stay on for I believe more than 2 minutes) or fill out a form on our site to be converted. And again, we measured all those goals separately. I think the logo does effect it, as shown by the data. It doesn't effect it to a huge degree, but it does ever so slightly. If we have a memorable logo, even if it is for a reason I don't completely understand, people will still memorize it more (and potentially come back more often due to that). That's what this was measuring, and I think it showed that the logo is an influence, however slightly. Of course, I think there are more important things you could be testing. But, I wanted a new logo, so I decided to show everybody how I did that :) We also test our optin forms and get more significant gains from that, but I haven't posted that yet haha Hope this helps, Will

Cool thanks. I can't wait for your other techniques/tools. Maybe how to make quick landing pages to test out business ideas.

Thanks Ryans, I thought the same thing! :)

You know Elliott, that was my suspicion, but I don't like judging my own work. And I know a lot of great graphics designers that don't hate on the contest sites that much, they just figured out how to position themselves as premium providers. Oh well, as long as somebody got some value out of it, it's worth it to me! Thanks man, Will

Thanks a lot, I appreciate it! One person said our heads are creepy, so I'm glad to get some positive feedback on our beautiful faces :-P Thanks again for commenting, talk again soon! Will

Hi Ben, Thanks a lot for the honest feedback, definitely the most valuable kind! To be honest, I agree with you. I don't remember if I mentioned it in the article, but I definitely think that at a certain point a business can afford a full redesign, front to bottom, to make the brand experience seamless. But until your business is bringing in over 100k a year (at least), I think this might be the best route. It's true that our audience could change with a single article and this data will be irrelevant. I don't think it's all that likely, but definitely possible. And it's 100% true that I missed out on some insights from a top quality designer. But as you mentioned, this is a good startup logo hack. Glad you saw the value through your criticism :) Will

Amazing job, you guys rock! Your articles are so rich with knowledge and informative about many things we need to know when starting up. I have to say again, Will you are amazing and you really inspired me to do not give up and if it wasn't for this blog I would have dropped my dream once again simply because I had no hope. I knew that was a way to make this all happen for I didn't know how to find the answers and here I find it all, and when I don't, you kindly answer to my desperate emails and give me a boost again. I appreciate all the work you put together to help us out! Keep up the great work! Sue Ellen

Hey Mario, Thanks a lot, glad to hear you liked my logo method. If you're looking for a guide on making quick landing pages to test out business ideas, I think you might like this post :) https://startupbros.com/3-steps-to-validate-your-business-idea-for-free/ Comment on that one and let me know what you think! Thanks, Will

Hey Omar, Yea, they ripped this one up, but I'm glad you can still see the value in it. It's great to be able to get some hard data testing different logo designs, that's the only drawback of your method. Of course, if you have a rolodex of designers, and can manage them well...more power to you! I use Elance for programmers, but haven't used any outsourcing sites for design really sign 99designs. I'll only use them if I need somebody hourly. Would love to hear more about your outsourcing method though. Thanks for commenting, Will

Hey Harvey, Happy to hear I could help! (woah, alliteration...) “How to Create a Logo Design” would definitely be a more useful college lesson than most of the things they are teaching. It probably would have convinced me to stick around! Too bad it isn't like that... Definitely down for a beer, where are you at? Keep kicking Harvey! Will

Hi Miheer, I'm not sure I understand, why wouldn't they want to work with me again?

Hi again Miheer, See above :)

Hi Fox, Thanks a lot for commenting. After the logo contest ends and you select your winner, 99designs will take you through a process to transfer the ownership of the logo over from the designer to you. So it's all yours. Will

Yep, it has it's uses...

Hey Jake, glad to have you around! Thanks for the kind words, and hope you can get some value out of the logo design concepts ;)

Awesome Michael, hope you can get some use out of it in the future. It does work! Let me know if you end up doing it and how it ends up, Will

Hi Sue, Thanks a lot for your kind words, I really appreciate it! It makes taking the time to help via email and comments worth it ;) I'm really happy to hear you won't be giving up on your dreams any time soon. Don't forget that most successful people became successful through managing a string of failures. Keep it up and you can't fail, eventually! By the way, I just emailed you back ;) Thanks again Sue! Will

You don't own the copyright to the logos until you pay for them. So how are you using all of them prior to paying for them?

Hey there Rajat, thanks a lot for commenting. Hope you liked the article. In the article I mention at the bottom of step 1 that I always ask the designers for permission to test their logo before moving forward. I tell them exactly what I'm going to do with it, test it against a few others I like and see which performs best. I've yet to have somebody deny me permission... I've been informed that 99Designs doesn't like this, but I think if you get permission from the designer himself you should be fine. It is perfectly ethical this way in my opinion, but maybe not everybody...

I am not sure what the controversy would be about, I found this well written and informative. You obviously put a generous amount of work into creating the walk through. The only thing I could see that might be construed as negative is that it might give the impression you were shilling for one company. I doubt this was the intention. Thanks again for all your hard work, I intend to benefit from it. ;)

Thanks a lot for your thoughtful feedback. That definitely wasn't the attention, though I've had some bad feedback from that. But the truth is, I would only use 99Designs at this point in time, so it's the only one I can recommend confidently! I don't recommend what I don't use :) Thanks again for the awesome comments! Will

Hey there, Want to know something funny? I'm one of those designers from 99Designs you left an ego-boosting inbox for the design of your book. Honestly it was kind of suspicious from the very beginning, I thought it was a trick from the website to encourage designers to participate in random contests or whatever. Even more suspicious because I've only participated on two book design contests and have won nothing. But any ways, I opened your contest, read the brief and started my research (thus the first thing a designer must do), which eventually brought me to this article. I have to say that I decided not to participate on the contest after all I read here, but I admit that you clever guys are very ingenious and I almost fall in other one of your design hacks. Which left me thinking a lot on what you do for living, because our way of thinking about jobs is almost the same. I totally understand the hate mail, by the way... I'm a professional graphic designer who ended college about a year ago, but I've never had a proper job in an office with a salary, medical insurance, and all that stuff, unlike my fellow colleagues that like to live normal capitalist lives. I could be doing the same and earning good money, but somehow that's not me, and all this year I've been surviving as a freelancer and entering web contests as the ones on 99Designs. So far I've been living in my family's house and had not to worry about the rent, but I will soon be moving with my girl and I feared I will have to surrender from this hippie life and get a proper job. But then I found you and have to say that I'm very interested on what you do, the description I read about your book on the design brief seems like something I would like to try. So I only wanted to share this with you as a person that now has been on the two sides of the coin. You do naughty but clever stuff to get what you want. I like you. And definitely want to know more about your stuff. And by the way, if you need a personal designer for your upcoming projects and get tired of holding 99 design contests, here I am. Cheers!

Hey Mario, Thanks for the very interesting comment :) Sorry to hear you don't like the method, and that we won't be seeing your work. But glad to hear you can see the value in it for entrepreneurs :) Honestly, I think you're right on that. I don't think it's possible to free yourself from the worries of money on 99Designs. It's a good way to make money, and probably a good way to make a living; but it's still trading time for money. You have to free yourself from that grind (it seems like you've realized that, though). On the flip side, there a designers out there who are making a killing. I don't know any personally, but I'm sure they are out there. It's definitely a good idea to look for long term clients though. I'd imagine that one of the easiest ways to create some cash flow for a designer would be to get a recurring client (like a daily coupon design for a grocery store), pass most of the work to an outsourced designer (a virtual assistant), then put the finishing touches on it and send it back to the client. Just my first thought, but there's a ton of ways out there. I'd love to keep in touch though, I like your style as well ;) Also, one thing that constantly bothers me about designers I work with is that they don't know marketing. It's impossible to find designers who know how to CONVERT as well as make something look good. Branding yourself like that may be an opportunity. There are a few companies out there that just make landing pages, but they make the best damn landing pages out there. I buy from them for some clients, because I know they make great looking pages that will convert. Would love to hear your thoughts on those ideas! Talk soon, Will

Hey Will, Thanks for your comment! I think 99Designs is a good way to earn extra cash but as you well said, you can't really make a living out of it, although there are some that claim that it is indeed possible, but that's very likely to just be like the 2% of the community. I agree with you, having long term clients seems to be the best option for designers, and what I love the most about this profession is that it gives you the possibility to work by yourself without the actual need of being at an office, but it is harder to achieve that as far as I've experienced. Any ways, I guess I just have to seek harder for those clients and work on my pitch! Thanks for taking the time, and yeah, let's keep in touch! I attached a link to my demo reel (2D motion is what I do the most). I would love to hear your thoughts on this, and what the hell, maybe you know someone that could use some of my animation skills :P Cheers, Mario

Hey Mario, Completely agree with you on all counts there! Work harder on your pitch maybe, or change your positioning :) Checked out your demo reel, very trippy and very cool haha. It always amazes me what people can do, I've never been too good at art. Business is my art :)

As a former designer doomed to sites like elance and 99designs, I just want to say that what you've come up with here is genius. If I was still designing logos, I would probably hate you after reading this, so I can see where the animosity came from. You're going to be putting a lot of logo designers out of business with this method. But you're going to be enabling many more entrepreneurs to get started. Bravo. Let me ask you though, how did you used to get your logos designed? Could you tell me about the evolution of your logo design methodology (not to get too scientific-sounding haha) I'd be interested to hear that.

Hey again Verdan, Haha, I was nervous when I started reading your first sentence. Thought I was getting more hate mail from this article :) This method will probably frustrate a lot of logo designers, but that's fine. Like you said, it's going to help a lot of entrepreneurs. That's my goal. I suppose I used to get my logos designed the same way everyone does, at some point. The first few logo designs I had done were done by random people on the internet. I went around to forums and found some people that looked like they had a decent logo portfolio. I messaged back and forth with them and picked a few of them to work with. I sent them some basic ideas, they sent me back a crappy logo. I wanted some revisions, they gave me a few. The logo ended up being not as crappy, but I still wasn't happy with it. I ended up extremely frustrated. I figured the only way to get a real polished logo done would be to spend the big money with design agencies I haven't even heard of. Then I started to see something interesting happening on forums. Logo design contests. People would post a brief outline of what they wanted done, and offer a reward for the best submission. These logo design competitions created some of the most valuable logos I've ever seen that. When I say that, I mean the logo was worth SO much more than what they paid. The competition aspect really beefed up the design standards. I started using those for a few years and had great results. I had finally figured out a way to get a decent logo designed. Then, all the forums cut us off. They banned all design competitions. Luckily though, within 6 months 99designs had taken the cue and created a business based on the idea. I started using then for logo designs, website designs, book cover designs, business card designs...everything I could. Ever since then, I've gotten a large amount of my design work done on 99designs. It wasn't until a few years later that I began to understand A/B testing and business in general on a deep level. That's when I started combining everything to come up with new ways to make 99designs more valuable for me. And like I said, I figured out how to get the perfect logo designed. :) Hope this helps, thanks for the comment! Will

Will, great article, I think I'm going to start using Leadpages seems easier to use, what do you think about optimizepress? Cheers

I read the article, and I'm currently a student just working my way through college so I can get my degree. I have done the 99design contests in the past, but when I started to learn about it I changed my mind. I don't really have a problem with the whole idea, seeing as how it is really the designers that are participating in the contests that are losing. Kind of like what Mario was talking about in the above comments. I do know that the competitions are also risky if you don't get any good designers or designs coming in. Which is why the recommendation lies in finding a professional designer to do the logo for you. You can find one who does things that you like as 1000's of freelance and other professional designers have their portfolios on the web. The real bonus in this is you can get the customization that you want, with the promise of getting it hammered out until you get something you like. Branding is huge for the business world, and if it was me paying to have something made, I would want the best. Something that I wouldn't change anytime soon. Which is the general problem that you run into with outsourced logos, they work for a while and then they get boring. Anyways, ran into this article looking for logo design ideas as I am about to start a project for school with that soon. Good luck with everything. Brett

Hi Will! Really enjoyed reading your article and hearing some love from an entrepreneurs viewpoint about logo contests. I'm a Graphic Designer, I've worked in a few art departments but currently am a designer and Community Manager at 48HoursLogo.com (check us out sometime!). I think you've got some really good tips in the walk-through. Whoever did the vector work on your heads did a great job, they look awesome :) good luck on your future contests! Rick

This is why I go on this site...freaking great man

Brilliant idea Will, I'll be using this soon. Leaving my job next week, I've finally built up the side income to make it possible - in no small part thanks to you! Wish me luck!

Just now I was reading your post "How to get the perfect logo designed" very useful information. Thanks for sharing! Subscribed too ;) Cheers!

Hi, thanks so much for the advice, i'm looking to build my own company aswell, i've been trying online logo design sites like LogoGenie, does anyone know any good online logo design sites or programs that i could use, thanks Dean

I'm a big fan of Leadpages actually, I use them quite a bit. OptimizePress is decent, but I've heard it's no Leadpages :) Here's our affiliate link if you're feeling nice - https://startupbros.com/leadpages

Thanks for the comment Brett! I think there's a place for dedicated designers. But until I am ready to hire somebody full-time, I'll be running contests for most of my work. The people that I get to do further work on my brand and website and graphics are usually the people who designed the winning logos, because they're style connected best with my audience. Even if I was hiring one designer, I would like some data to put behind my choices. As elegant as I think my taste is, I don't think I can beat hard data :) But again, to each his own :) Good luck on the project, Will

Happy to hear you enjoyed the article Rick! Great website, I love the design and the concept :) Thanks a lot for the kind words, I'm a big fan of that designer. He actually does all his work by hand first, great guy :)

Haha, glad you liked it Chris

That's awesome to hear Russ, wish you the best of luck on the next phase of your life :-D Feel free to email or comment any time if you need help, of course...

Thanks for joining Hadwa, glad to have you on board :)

I haven't heard of that site, but of course - I'd recommend 99Designs using the method I documented above ;)

Thanks for the great article. Your Visual Website Optomizer - Conversion Goals graphic link does not work. It would be nice to see this page. Thanks!

There are other broken graphic links as well. Might want to test/fix them all. Thanks!

This is a very interesting forum and I must applaud Will for his genius, even though I find the ego-boosting method to attract designers to be politically incorrect. You should not be telling a designer "I love your work" unless you mean it. Manipulating people into your contest might give you a high count of participants but, unless you really liked their work, these participants will end up being useless simply because they will not be on the same page as you in terms of what makes good design. So you will just be wasting their and your time. Further more, I would like to bring awareness to those that talk about "overpaid" designers. They are paid for their expertise and hard work and many years of experience that makes their designs so great that in the end they will make the customer rich. So there is nothing wrong about paying well the person who is going to make you very rich. As for the remaining designers, the ones who struggle and scramble on the crowd sourcing sites, just know and appreciate how lucky you are to have all these people working their buts off for you. Be always respectful and appreciative and make sure not to be wasting their time, so always provide honest and prompt feedback and acknowledge their effort. It usually takes them more work and time than they are getting paid for, but most of them will remain committed and loyal, providing one proposal after another, one revision after another, and ending up with putting so many hours into pleasing you that their total hourly pay ends up reduced to less than the minimum wage. I just want to bring awareness about what goes on on the other side and hope every interpreter here will know to respect and appreciate these people. And that begins with not bragging about manipulating and exploiting them.

Just receive my company logo and the result VERY PRO & AWESOME JOB from THE TEAM... Thanks Guys

Just found your site for the first time. I am impressed! Well done! This method makes a lot of sense when you're looking at a redesign.

Hi there just wanted to give you a brief heads up and let you know a few of the pictures aren't loading correctly. I'm not sure why but I think its a linking issue. I've tried it in two different internet browsers and both show the same outcome.

The website optimizer won't upload the logos I saved from 99designs. I already have the permission. They keep saving as .html. What do you recommend I do to save them so they can be uploaded to the optimizer?

I just found you're sight. I shared this article and posted the below comment on lonked'in: This is for all you wantrepreneurs... These guys take a page out of crowd-sourcing and bring it to a new level with on-line competition. Startup Bros are young, but they are the real thing. Anyone, who's been around long enough know you can learn from anyone. Stop giving advice, and start looking for people that have done, what you're about to do.

With havin so much content do you ever run into any issues of plagorism or copyright infringement? My blog has a lot of unique content I've either written myself or outsourced but it appears a lot of it is popping it up all over the internet without my agreement. Do you know any ways to help protect against content from being stolen? I'd definitely appreciate it.

This is awesome stuff for small business start ups. I am about to start up my business! finally! after months of planning and writing things in my book of knowledge *side eyes* The time to act is now!!! But i dont understand it all!!!! Where do i start from??? help me please!!! Truly amazing job guys. Thank you for sharing knowledge at no cost

I think this is one of the most important info for me. And i'm glad reading your article. But should remark on sokme general things, The site styyle is wonderful, the articles is really great : D. Good job, cheers

For $300 you can get hundreds of different logo designs from different artists. It’s an absolute steal. Sorry Will but that's got to be the most insulting & humiliating statement to any designer. Priding yourself about how many designers you managed to con into wasting their time is no great achievement. This can never be a level playing field...the client has the money so 99designs will go out of it's way accommodate him by providing a hundred desperate crap designers in full knowledge that 99% of them will work for free. That;s why the concept is so attractive to contest holders & not designers.

Wow, way to come up with a ground-breaking idea and put it into a workable strategy - yet still be humble about it... STOP BEING HUMBLE!!! Everybody needs to know these things Will!

Contest is one of the most different ways of getting a good Logo. I just realized it after reading this post.

Excellent article, easy to follow and can point people here for their logo and testing. Love the new logo too!!

Hi guys. An interesting read. The comments are also very interesting. Don't you see any value at all in having a professional designer or design agency have design your brand identity or logo design? Regards, Tony

Brilliant article, clear and easy to understand in the steps provided. Just curious if you've used optimizepress before?

It's awesome designed for me to have a web site, which is beneficial for my knowledge. thanks admin

Have you considered Fiverr for a new logo design? At least the seller working on Fiverr is paid, and it's not a kind of SPEC work. Still, many professionals still hate Fiverr due to reasons like "devaluing the years of training and expertise". Actually, I think the main reason is still the fear of "competition".

In my opinion the best way to get a logo is from fiverr in just 5$.

Hello, I am an entrepreneur and I would appreciate if you could help work on my designs, especially the logo. Please get back at me. [redacted]. Thanks

I've had a lot of logos designed over the years and I wouldn't automatically suggest anyone use crowd sourcing sites. Also, 99Designs has higher costs (especially in advertising and commissions), so they don't get as many great designers on there as some of the competing sites do. One trick I've found is to get a $20 a year membership on Dribbble.com and just peruse through designers until you find some you like. I found one on there that would send me 6 mockups to choose from before I committed to paying, then had me send 50% up front and 50% after final edits were made.

Fantastic items from you, man. I have take into accout your stuff previous to and you are just extremely magnificent. I really like what you've received right here, certainly like what you are stating and the way during which you are saying it. You're making it enjoyable and you still take care of to stay it wise. I cant wait to learn far more from you. That is really a great website.

Hi Will! Do you have any experience with running shorter contests, say 3 days? If so, how do the results compare with the standard 7 day contest? I'm looking to create an upscale hotel logo and think it might be more complicated than other types. Any tips would be greatly appreciated!

I am a designer myself. But 99Design has made me loose many design. People steal in open contests.

Will you sur 99design for a serious project ?

Sure, Tim Ferriss has used it to source book cover ideas

Too bad it's written in a very popular (almost notorious) font. See #5 in the list: http://www.logoinsider.com/25-overused-logo-designs-that-can-harm-your-brand-name/ You guys should really rebrand :-)

Excellent article! I am not sure what the controversy would be about, I found this well written and informative. You obviously put a generous amount of work into creating the walk through.This article is really very informative.Thanks for sharing!

99designs is a good place to find the right designer. But not the only one ;- ) Take a look at our works and prices. I hope you'll like it ;) Best regards, Artem

a shit logo from shit website

I have one logo/pitcher which become fade. I want that pitcher to be make bold and also to give size as per my requirement. Is it possible or not. Best regards,